Comments on: Never Add Clay to Sand or Sand to Clay http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/ Just another Patwelsh.com weblog Mon, 21 May 2012 16:00:54 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.2 By: Soil Is Vital To Organic Gardening | About Alta Monte Springs http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/comment-page-1/#comment-1971 Soil Is Vital To Organic Gardening | About Alta Monte Springs Fri, 27 Apr 2012 10:16:09 +0000 http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/?p=77#comment-1971 [...] having a good organic garden. Do as much as you can to understand organic gardening and try it out.The prep work of soil is one big difference between organic gardening and regular gardening. Do not ...to have good soil for organic gardening. If you're a newcomer to organic gardening, the biggest [...] [...] having a good organic garden. Do as much as you can to understand organic gardening and try it out.The prep work of soil is one big difference between organic gardening and regular gardening. Do not …to have good soil for organic gardening. If you're a newcomer to organic gardening, the biggest [...]

]]> By: Pat http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/comment-page-1/#comment-1969 Pat Thu, 26 Apr 2012 05:01:12 +0000 http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/?p=77#comment-1969 There are many gardeners who would agree with your view. On the other hand there are many on the other side of the fence who say along with Alan Chadwick, the great promoter of Bio-Intensive Gardening and Double-Digging, "There is no bad soil, only neglected soil." Many plants thrive in clay soil and will do better in clay than sand, for example, since clay is chock full of nutrients and minerals and holds moisture, while sand has nothing in it and cannot hold moisture. I point to the orange groves of California many of which thrive on clay soil and to roses that cover themselves with glory when grown in amended clay and require far less water than when grown in sandy or silty soils. I grant you that amending clay with organic matter it is a back-breaking job. Double-digging works much better than rototilling and can be accomplished with machinery also. Plowing and disking works fine. I know since I lived on a farm when I was in my early teens. Our soil was red clay with rocks in it. We plowed our fields and disked in aged chicken, sheep and cow manures. Our results were phenomenal. Everything from vegetables and fruit trees to corn, wheat and alfalfa grew vigorously and produced abundant crops. Rototilling is perhaps not the best way to treat clay soil, but incorporating manure and compost into clay soil and mulching on top of it will eventually loosen it and make it drain. In cases where clay is compacted due to alkalinity and not from mechanical effects, regular applications of gysum are extremely effective and low-cost. If you ever make the mistake of mixing sand into clay you will learn the truth of which I speak when I say— "Never mix sand into clay or clay into sand or you will end up with something akin to concrete! Never monkey with the structure of your soil. Improve all soil by adding organic matter." There are many gardeners who would agree with your view. On the other hand there are many on the other side of the fence who say along with Alan Chadwick, the great promoter of Bio-Intensive Gardening and Double-Digging, “There is no bad soil, only neglected soil.” Many plants thrive in clay soil and will do better in clay than sand, for example, since clay is chock full of nutrients and minerals and holds moisture, while sand has nothing in it and cannot hold moisture. I point to the orange groves of California many of which thrive on clay soil and to roses that cover themselves with glory when grown in amended clay and require far less water than when grown in sandy or silty soils. I grant you that amending clay with organic matter it is a back-breaking job. Double-digging works much better than rototilling and can be accomplished with machinery also. Plowing and disking works fine. I know since I lived on a farm when I was in my early teens. Our soil was red clay with rocks in it. We plowed our fields and disked in aged chicken, sheep and cow manures. Our results were phenomenal. Everything from vegetables and fruit trees to corn, wheat and alfalfa grew vigorously and produced abundant crops. Rototilling is perhaps not the best way to treat clay soil, but incorporating manure and compost into clay soil and mulching on top of it will eventually loosen it and make it drain. In cases where clay is compacted due to alkalinity and not from mechanical effects, regular applications of gysum are extremely effective and low-cost. If you ever make the mistake of mixing sand into clay you will learn the truth of which I speak when I say— “Never mix sand into clay or clay into sand or you will end up with something akin to concrete! Never monkey with the structure of your soil. Improve all soil by adding organic matter.”

]]> By: will http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/comment-page-1/#comment-1968 will Wed, 25 Apr 2012 22:41:59 +0000 http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/?p=77#comment-1968 I Rototill gardens in the spring,I've countered gardens that were so heavily compacted from clay that a root wouldn't penetrate then anyway,anything a gardener can do to loosen the soil will help. personally I would tell them to have it removed, and put in some good dirt I never known any plant that liked a clay soil.. I Rototill gardens in the spring,I’ve countered gardens that were so heavily compacted from clay that a root wouldn’t penetrate then anyway,anything a gardener can do to loosen the soil will help. personally I would tell them to have it removed, and put in some good dirt I never known any plant that liked a clay soil..

]]> By: Pat http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/comment-page-1/#comment-1891 Pat Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:22:13 +0000 http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/?p=77#comment-1891 I know what you are up against since I garden in sandy soil and have done so for many years. Some of the soil in my garden was almost akin to beach sand when I began gardening here. Roughly a million years ago that is probably exactly what it was. Sandy soil such as I have in my garden has some huge benefits and a few detriments. Chief among the benefits of sandy soil is the good drainage plants enjoy. Most wildflowers and many drought-resistant plants revel in good drainage, but chief among the detriments is the fact that sandy soil is "hungry soil". It retains no nutrients and rapidly eats up any composted soil amendments with which you try to build it up. Additionally and quite the contrary of what most people would suppose, in dry weather it is often difficult to get sandy soil wet. This is due to the fact that sand crystals have flat sides and square corners and tend to line up together like soldiers' shields in a Roman phalanx, thus stopping water from penetrating. When this happens water simply rolls off dry sand especially when it is on a slope. The best way to improve the fertility and water retention of sandy soil is to add manure to the soil every year. (In dry climates such as where I live this activity needs to be combined with regular irrigation or heavy winter rains or one's garden soil might become salty. In Vermont, however, rainfall should be adequate to leach the salts out of the manure.) Get a truck load or two of aged horse, cow, or sheep manure and spread it on top of the soil to the depth of about 4 inches.Then dig it into the ground to the depth of about one foot. From then on continue to add aged manure on top of the ground annually. If you add it in fall you can safely use fresh manure and let it age on top of the ground and then leave it there as mulch or you can safely dig it into the ground prior to planting in spring. Following this method, you will eventually enjoy great garden soil that is black and sweet smelling and in which you will be able to grow anything. I do not recommend mounding up the soil as you apparently plan to do since mounded soil dries out too quickly. Additionally, do not try to install any kind of barrier under the top soil you will produce. Your desire should be for any salts coming from the manure or fertilizers to be freely leached away into the ground by rain and irrigation. Stopping this from happening would be detrimental to your plants. Unfortunately, there will already exist somewhat of a barrier as I have explained above. Until you have begun improving your soil by manuring it annually and kept this up for several years the dry soil down deeper will form a phalanx to some extent and prevent water from pouring down into the ground as freely as it should. But as you faithfully continue your program of regularly amending your garden with manure, your problems with dry soil will eventually vanish. The manure will dramatically increase the humus-content of your soil so that in time it will become like a fertile sponge holding just the right amount of water and nutrients to give the roots of your plants the perfect growing conditions that you desire and they require for healthy plant growth. I know what you are up against since I garden in sandy soil and have done so for many years. Some of the soil in my garden was almost akin to beach sand when I began gardening here. Roughly a million years ago that is probably exactly what it was. Sandy soil such as I have in my garden has some huge benefits and a few detriments. Chief among the benefits of sandy soil is the good drainage plants enjoy. Most wildflowers and many drought-resistant plants revel in good drainage, but chief among the detriments is the fact that sandy soil is “hungry soil”. It retains no nutrients and rapidly eats up any composted soil amendments with which you try to build it up. Additionally and quite the contrary of what most people would suppose, in dry weather it is often difficult to get sandy soil wet. This is due to the fact that sand crystals have flat sides and square corners and tend to line up together like soldiers’ shields in a Roman phalanx, thus stopping water from penetrating. When this happens water simply rolls off dry sand especially when it is on a slope. The best way to improve the fertility and water retention of sandy soil is to add manure to the soil every year. (In dry climates such as where I live this activity needs to be combined with regular irrigation or heavy winter rains or one’s garden soil might become salty. In Vermont, however, rainfall should be adequate to leach the salts out of the manure.) Get a truck load or two of aged horse, cow, or sheep manure and spread it on top of the soil to the depth of about 4 inches.Then dig it into the ground to the depth of about one foot. From then on continue to add aged manure on top of the ground annually. If you add it in fall you can safely use fresh manure and let it age on top of the ground and then leave it there as mulch or you can safely dig it into the ground prior to planting in spring. Following this method, you will eventually enjoy great garden soil that is black and sweet smelling and in which you will be able to grow anything. I do not recommend mounding up the soil as you apparently plan to do since mounded soil dries out too quickly. Additionally, do not try to install any kind of barrier under the top soil you will produce. Your desire should be for any salts coming from the manure or fertilizers to be freely leached away into the ground by rain and irrigation. Stopping this from happening would be detrimental to your plants. Unfortunately, there will already exist somewhat of a barrier as I have explained above. Until you have begun improving your soil by manuring it annually and kept this up for several years the dry soil down deeper will form a phalanx to some extent and prevent water from pouring down into the ground as freely as it should. But as you faithfully continue your program of regularly amending your garden with manure, your problems with dry soil will eventually vanish. The manure will dramatically increase the humus-content of your soil so that in time it will become like a fertile sponge holding just the right amount of water and nutrients to give the roots of your plants the perfect growing conditions that you desire and they require for healthy plant growth.

]]> By: Nicole http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/comment-page-1/#comment-1886 Nicole Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:53:03 +0000 http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/?p=77#comment-1886 Good info thanks. So here we are in southern Vermont about to start putting some beds into sandy fill. We don't really know how deep it is, it could be 5 to 10ft deep. We are currently planning to dig a foot down into the stuff and then mix what we dug with compost and some peat and vermiculite. We will use this to create beds that extend below the surface one foot and above a foot for a 24inch deep bed. One of our biggest questions is should we be putting something at the bottom of the bed to slow the drainage of nutrients through the sandy fill at the bottom? Any advice would be greatly appreciated Good info thanks.

So here we are in southern Vermont about to start putting some beds into sandy fill. We don’t really know how deep it is, it could be 5 to 10ft deep. We are currently planning to dig a foot down into the stuff and then mix what we dug with compost and some peat and vermiculite. We will use this to create beds that extend below the surface one foot and above a foot for a 24inch deep bed.

One of our biggest questions is should we be putting something at the bottom of the bed to slow the drainage of nutrients through the sandy fill at the bottom?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated

]]> By: Amelia http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/comment-page-1/#comment-1877 Amelia Mon, 26 Mar 2012 01:30:22 +0000 http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/?p=77#comment-1877 Hello Pat! Wonderful Blog. Thank You. I have a question. I usually use mulch to keep weeds from coming up in the paths between my garden beds. This year I was going to use sand; until I found your website! The reason I wanted to use sand was twofold 1) to lighten the heavy clay soil (which I now know is not correct) and 2) to keep weeds down in the paths between my garden beds. I don't want to use mulch any longer because it is expensive and in 6 months has turned into dirt which the weeds love. The benefit of the mulch as a weed detterent is short lived but then again each season I use the soil that formed from the mulch in the paths and add it (as organic matter) to the beds. This is working but it is a lot of work. I am looking for something perhaps more permanent to keep weeds down in the paths. The beds are NOT raised so adding gravel to the paths would eventully get into the beds as I tilled and worked the soil. Any reccomendations for something to keep weeds down that isn't mulch, sand, or gravel? The beds are NOT raised so adding gravel to the paths would eventully get into the beds as I tilled and worked the soil. Hello Pat!

Wonderful Blog. Thank You.

I have a question.

I usually use mulch to keep weeds from coming up in the paths between my garden beds. This year I was going to use sand; until I found your website! The reason I wanted to use sand was twofold 1) to lighten the heavy clay soil (which I now know is not correct) and 2) to keep weeds down in the paths between my garden beds.

I don’t want to use mulch any longer because it is expensive and in 6 months has turned into dirt which the weeds love.
The benefit of the mulch as a weed detterent is short lived but then again each season I use the soil that formed from the mulch in the paths and add it (as organic matter) to the beds.

This is working but it is a lot of work.

I am looking for something perhaps more permanent to keep weeds down in the paths. The beds are NOT raised so adding gravel to the paths would eventully get into the beds as I tilled and worked the soil. Any reccomendations for something to keep weeds down that isn’t mulch, sand, or gravel?

The beds are NOT raised so adding gravel to the paths would eventully get into the beds as I tilled and worked the soil.

]]> By: Your Questions About Vegetable Gardening Tips | Glenns Garden http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/comment-page-1/#comment-1562 Your Questions About Vegetable Gardening Tips | Glenns Garden Fri, 16 Dec 2011 11:15:34 +0000 http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/?p=77#comment-1562 [...] be easy enough to manage. That and they are pretty and attract butterflies!Powered by Yahoo! AnswersJoseph asks…vegetable gardening?i am TOTALLY new to gardening. i followed the miracle grow soil di...tm-content">vegetable gardening?i am TOTALLY new to gardening. i followed the miracle grow soil [...] [...] be easy enough to manage. That and they are pretty and attract butterflies!Powered by Yahoo! AnswersJoseph asks…vegetable gardening?i am TOTALLY new to gardening. i followed the miracle grow soil di…tm-content">vegetable gardening?i am TOTALLY new to gardening. i followed the miracle grow soil [...]

]]> By: Pat http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/comment-page-1/#comment-1426 Pat Mon, 07 Nov 2011 03:05:35 +0000 http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/?p=77#comment-1426 Thanks for your amusing comment. I just returned from a trip through New Mexico and Arizona where the walls and buttresses of churches that have stood for hundreds of years are built of clay, sand, and straw. In order to keep these sun-baked buildings standing to this very day, dedicated locals apply a layer of this muddy mix (sand, clay, and straw) to the exterior walls annually. While in Taos, New Mexico, I saw a video of Maria Martinez gathering clay and then mixing into it about 20% of volcanic-based sand before shaping it into pots and firing it in an outdoor open fire of dry cow pats to create her distinctive black Santa Clara pueblo pottery. I guess my heading should have been: "Be Sure to Mix Sand into Your Clay Soil if Your Aim is to Make Pottery or Adobe Bricks Instead of Growing Vegetables and Flowers." Do you think that would finally teach people? Thanks for your amusing comment. I just returned from a trip through New Mexico and Arizona where the walls and buttresses of churches that have stood for hundreds of years are built of clay, sand, and straw. In order to keep these sun-baked buildings standing to this very day, dedicated locals apply a layer of this muddy mix (sand, clay, and straw) to the exterior walls annually. While in Taos, New Mexico, I saw a video of Maria Martinez gathering clay and then mixing into it about 20% of volcanic-based sand before shaping it into pots and firing it in an outdoor open fire of dry cow pats to create her distinctive black Santa Clara pueblo pottery. I guess my heading should have been: “Be Sure to Mix Sand into Your Clay Soil if Your Aim is to Make Pottery or Adobe Bricks Instead of Growing Vegetables and Flowers.” Do you think that would finally teach people?

]]> By: Grant http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/comment-page-1/#comment-1392 Grant Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:57:20 +0000 http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/?p=77#comment-1392 This is funny since there is a book called 'Build Your Own Earth Oven' by Kiko Denzer that specifies mixing sand and clay or clay, sand and manure/sawdust, to make a clay oven for baking artisan breads, pizzas and other good things. The mixture of clay and sand - hard as 'brick' for an oven that lasts and holds together with a large baking area inside. This is funny since there is a book called ‘Build Your Own Earth Oven’ by Kiko Denzer that specifies mixing sand and clay or clay, sand and manure/sawdust, to make a clay oven for baking artisan breads, pizzas and other good things. The mixture of clay and sand – hard as ‘brick’ for an oven that lasts and holds together with a large baking area inside.

]]> By: Pat http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/blog/soils/never-add-clay-to-sand-or-sand-to-clay/comment-page-1/#comment-1317 Pat Fri, 07 Oct 2011 16:37:43 +0000 http://patwelsh.com/wpmu/?p=77#comment-1317 Hello Ben: Once you select the product of interest you'll see the prices. Shipping and taxes are then calculated based on the products you order and the ship to address. Please contact us with any additional questions! -Pat Welsh Gardening Hello Ben:

Once you select the product of interest you’ll see the prices. Shipping and taxes are then calculated based on the products you order and the ship to address.

Please contact us with any additional questions!
-Pat Welsh Gardening

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